Episode 74: Bisexual and Sober with Tawny Lara

When we get sober, many things come to light and we're faced with knowing ourselves fully for the first time. This includes getting more acquainted with our sexuality.

In this candid conversation, our podcast host, Dr. Tiffany Wynn,  speaks with  writer, podcast host, and "sober sexpert," Tawny Lara, about Tawny's journey to uncovering her bisexuality once she got sober. A self-described love and sex addict, Tawny describes her transformation from finding self-worth in relationships (prior to sobriety) to discovering and leaning into her true personality and sober dating. Tawny also describes how she remains a sober party girl who loves life and still enjoys attending events. She goes into detail on that topic in her first book Dry Humping,  which is set to be released this fall.

ABOUT TAWNY LARA:

Tawny Lara is a NYC-based millennial writer / public speaker who is known in the recovery realm as The Sober Sexpert. Her book, Dry Humping: A Guide to Dating, Relating, and Hooking Up Without Booze, comes out September 19, 2023. She co-hosts the Signal Award-winning “Best Buddy” podcast Recovery Rocks. Invitation to subscribe to her weekly column Beyond Liquid Courage about all things sober dating and relationships.

Her writing is featured in Playboy, Men’s Health, Huffington Post, and two essay collections: Sex and the Single Woman and The Addiction Diaries.

Visit her website here: https://www.tawnylara.com/
Subscribe to her newsletter here: https://tawnylara.substack.com/
Pre-order Tawny's book here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/730665/dry-humping-by-tawny-lara/

EPISODE RESOURCES

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Transcript

Episode 74: Bisexual and Sober with Tawny Lara - Transcript

SHE RECOVERS Introduction:

Welcome to the SHE RECOVERS Podcast. This podcast is recorded on the traditional, ancestral and unseated territory of the Tewa people. I am Lisa Wall of Mission Programs and Community Care here at SHE RECOVERS, and I am honored to share a little bit of our HERtory with you today. 

The SHE RECOVERS story began in 2011 as a passion project initiated by a recovering duo - a mother, Dawn Nickel, and her daughter, Taryn Strong, who both desired to normalize what it meant to be a woman in recovery and inspire those seeking healing from substance use disorders and trauma to find and follow individualized pathways and patchworks of recovery.

Today, SHE RECOVERS Foundation is a 501 (c)(3) nonprofit, public charity and a global grassroots movement serving more than 325,000 women and nonbinary individuals in or seeking recovery from a myriad of life challenges, including trauma, mental health issues, and substance use. 

Our mission is to redefine recovery, inspire hope, end stigma, and empower women to increase their recovery capital, heal themselves, and help other women to do the same. There is no greater source of inspiration or influence than a woman in recovery and our story is proof.

SHE RECOVERS believes that we are all recovering from something. And here on the podcast, we examine the healing power of connection and intentional living, as well as what happens in our lives when we put down our past stories and pick up our soul's true purpose. 

We know that if you're tuning in today, you too envision a world where all women in or seeking recovery are celebrated, supported and deemed essential to help healthy communities. A world where no one has to recover alone. We believe the following guest story will inspire you to write a new chapter in your recovery story. I hope you find connection, support, and empowerment in this week's episode. It is an honor to share it with you. 

Episode Introduction:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the SHE RECOVERS Podcast. Today's episode is between our host Tiffany and Tawny Lara, who is an NYC based millennial, also known as the Sober Sexpert. Her book, Dry Humping: a Guide to Dating, Relating and Hooking Up Without Booze comes out September 19 of 2023. She also co-hosts the Signal Award-winning best buddy podcast called Recovery Rocks. You can subscribe to her weekly column, Beyond Liquid Courage, which is about all things sober dating and relationships. Her writing has been featured in Playboy, Men's Health, and Huffington Post. We're so excited for you to hear this conversation today. There's a lot of talk about sexuality and getting sober and finding yourself in all realms. We hope you enjoy. 

Tawny Lara

My partner laughs because I have so many Internet friends that I've never met IRL. And it's because the hashtag sober community is just so alive and well

Tiffany Wynn

Right? We're everywhere. We are everywhere. It's true. And Dawn and Taryn, I'm sure you know, since you know them, but started SHE RECOVERS as an attempt to broaden what recovery looks like and talks about and to really dive into intergenerational trauma. Before we go into that, I really want to know who are you as a human, not just this amazing person who's in…your circle of influence is huge -  I can't believe - your writing is spectacular. And the amount of different ways you've sort of poked your messaging into different arenas. I have to know who you are. 

Tawny Lara

Thank you. That's very kind. I'm Tawny. I live in New York City. And as I said earlier, I'm tired because I am everywhere. I'm but I got sober November of 2015, and sobriety was really just…it was a social experiment at the time. We didn't have the word sober curious yet, but that's definitely what I was. Before that, I was a party girl bartender. I lived this stereotypical dance on the bar bartender. I was either bartending, dancing on the bar, or ordering drinks on the other side. Like, I lived in the bar. 

Tiffany Wynn

We're the same person. 

Tawny Lara

Yeah. Which is, I guess, and I clearly…I still have that energy. I say I'm still a party girl. I just don't drink anymore. I love socializing. I love going to events and doing events. I just I've always loved getting people together and. But yeah. So, you know, I'm all over the place right now. 

But, yeah, I mean, I was a party girl. Got sober in November of 2015, shortly after relocating from Texas to New York City to pursue writing. And my getting sober story was super anticlimactic. As much as I love drama, I'm very disappointed that I don't have, like, that rock bottom story, which I know is a privilege to say, but I was in a pub drinking with some friends and talking about how I don't have time to write. My friend was talking about how she doesn't have time to audition. We're all just kind of complaining post day job drinks. And something clicked in me on that walk home. It was just like, okay, I just spent 4 hours in a pub commiserating about how I don't have time to write. Maybe there's something here. 

So the next morning, I was like, okay, I'm not drinking for a week, not drinking for two weeks, then a month, and then a year came around or, I'm sorry, my 30th birthday came around and I was like, what if I don't drink for a full year my whole 30th year? What if I don't drink alcohol and I start a blog and I write about it? So that's what I did. Like I said, I was sober curious. But I didn't have a name for it back then. And I started a blog called Sobriety Party. And if you want to read some really cringeworthy early blog posts, they're still there. And I was 100% correct. My hypothesis was correct. I quit drinking. And I was writing consistently, my blog got successful, whatever the hell that means. And I was getting some freelance pieces published and what was supposed to be a year long social experiment. Spoiler alert, I'm seven and a half years sober now and have a book coming out. A sex column. A podcast. A sober sex column. 

They say when you quit drinking, you could really live a life beyond your wildest dreams. And that is 100% my life right now. Living in New York City. Who the hell am I? How is this possible? 

Tiffany Wynn

Well, it's the miracle of sobriety. I have a life that I could not have imagined my life as it is today when I first got sober and clean. And I could not have imagined the relationship I have. I could not have imagined the work I do. I could not imagine the calls I get to take. I just. My best my best thinking was Ibiza with a bunch of pills and a whole lot of vodka. That's the best I could do. 

Tawny Lara

Yes. I'm nodding yes. It's so true to that note. I was like, God, getting sober is going to be so boring. Like, what the hell am I going to do for fun? And now I look back and I'm like, every night was the same. That is so boring. 

Tiffany Wynn

Yeah, I remember the first night I was at home in my house alone, reading a book at, like, 7:30 at night. And I was like, oh, no. Now what am I? 

Tawny Lara

And you loved it. 

Tiffany Wynn

I was like, It's so quiet. And I'm not emotionally dysregulated and I like the book, and I can actually read the words. 

Tawny Lara

Yes, you can follow the story. Right? Yeah, I get it. 

Tiffany Wynn

Did you grow up in Texas? 

Tawny Lara

Partially, yes. And I was born in Northern California. My father was and is a heavy metal musician, and my mom was his groupie. So I grew up around this glamorizing this…very extravagant is not the right word…just over the top heavy metal scene. When my dad wasn't on tour, when he was home, my time spent with him was either at the recording studio band practice, surrounded by these long haired, tatted up dudes chugging Jack Daniels from the bottle, and then the girls that were on the side, like, waiting on their boyfriends. I thought that was really glamorous and cool. 

And still seven and a half years sober, I am still very much attracted to that rock and roll life. As a journalist, we define our beat. Like, what do we write about? So I say sex, sobriety, rock and roll, because that's just ingrained in me. It's in my DNA. And my dad is now sober, so that's really cool that we have that in common. And as two artists in recovery, we can really understand each other in a way that we couldn't when I was a kid and when I needed my dad. Now recovery has given me the gift of understanding where he was and how he couldn't even take care of himself. That's easier said than done. Don't get me wrong. That was years of therapy and crying, and I still have a lot of resentment. 

But I think the greatest gift to that is seeing, I think seeing my parents as humans instead of mom and dad, that's like. Dad went through this shit, and then this is how he reacted. And humanizing my parents has been a huge part of my recovery. 

Tiffany Wynn

Of course. How did you find recovery? I mean, you said you just wanted to practice with this experiment. How did that happen for you? What was the path? What has the last seven years been? Because for me, my recovery was my recovery in the first few months…the first few years is not what it is today. And I always want to know from women, especially creative women, how are you doing this? 

Tawny Lara

Yes. I love that question because it's like a lot of people, when you tell them you don't do AA, they're like, oh, you did it on your own. It's like, no, I didn't do it on my own. I just didn't go to AA. Therapy. I did find a peer support group that worked for me. Yoga was and is a huge part of my recovery. Writing, blogging, meditation, getting into tarot, just exercise. I have this huge…my co-host and I for my podcast, Recovery Rocks, we talk a lot about the sobriety toolkit. And it's interesting that you say that. Yours has kind of evolved. Mine has, too. A lot of it stayed the same. I'm still with the same therapist, thank God. 

Tiffany Wynn

We love our therapists. 

Tawny Lara

She has been with me through all of it and so grateful for her. I've had the same yoga teacher through all of it, so it's like. I did yoga teacher training during when I was, I think, four years sober and just really all these different I guess I did a DIY program. I didn't really know what I was doing, but kind of like what we said earlier, the hashtag sober Instagram, that was my peer support group at the very beginning. That's how I met a lot of the people that are some of my best friends today. My co host, Lisa Smith, she's an author as well. She wrote Girl Walks Out of a Bar, a memoir about being a lawyer, getting sober in New York. She and I met on Instagram. The reason I share that is because there's a lot of trash talk that we could say about social media. Of course there's a lot of bad, but there's a lot of good. And I think that good comes from finding your community. And that was what my early recovery looks like, and that is still what my recovery looks like today. 

Tiffany Wynn

I love that. One of the things I see in all people who maintain their recovery and recovery is not just immediate sobriety. Sobriety is setting it all down, right? But recovery is much different. And the people who do it really well all have a community of people who want them to be successful, will listen without judgment and offer solutions no matter what. And I see that in everything that works, and almost everything works. 

You just have to find the thing that works for you. And my fiance, she is also a very high powered attorney, also in recovery. And we've had a lot of talks about like, I happen to work in behavioral health, she is an attorney. How do we make this work and how do we set things down and have the professionalism and be open about our recovery?

I'm looking at your website, which I'm going to recommend everyone go to it. It's just tawnylara.com. And then the writing the articles and essays section is where I am right now. And I want to hear about one of the headlines of one of your articles is how sobriety helped you embrace your bisexuality. And for me, also sexuality in general, that headline is like, wham, that's my life. So I want to hear from you about what did sobriety and now real solid recovery do for your sensuality, your sexuality, your ability to have relationships? Because it's not just body that's involved once we're in recovery. 

Tawny Lara

Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's one of my favorite pieces that I wrote. It was very raw to explore that. And I think writing about sexuality, sensuality, gender in recovery, that's how I got the nickname the sober sexpert. And that's why my book Dry Humping is about sober sex and dating, because exploring sex and sexuality was a significant part of my recovery. Still is, it's ongoing. Like you're learning about your own sexuality and gender for your whole life. Yeah, forever. 

I didn't have the word bisexual, but at the time, I knew that I was attracted to men and women. When I was 14, I came home from school, and I was watching TRL. 

Tiffany Wynn

I feel like we're the same person. I'm just like…hahaha…

Tawny Lara

Yeah, I was obsessed with Carson Dailey and his two black fingernails. And one of the videos on TRL, if people are listening and they don't know what it is, it was like THE hit show. It was on every day at 3:00 o’clock…countdown of the top ten most popular music videos. And one of those videos was Lenny Kravitz - Again, and it was him and Gina Gershon. And I remember thinking, wow, I want to make out with both of them. And I am very privileged in the fact that I have a gay uncle and a lesbian aunt. So I knew that that was okay. I didn't internalize those feelings, and I'm very grateful that I had that experience. It was a different time, and they couldn't be as open as they can be now. But on some level, I understood. Carol's with Liz. And this is how it is. And I guess that rhymes, right? 

Tiffany Wynn

And it's okay, and it's just what it is. 

Tawny Lara

Yeah, it's what it is. It's no different than this is just how they are. And there's nothing wrong with that. So I didn't internalize the…I didn't have any shame in those feelings. I was like, oh, cool. And you know, when I would date women or date men, like, hook up with anyone, it was like I would just talk about it with friends. Like, oh, I'm going to go out with her tonight. I'm going to do this. But I still never felt like I was bisexual enough. 

And the reason sobriety comes into this story is because once I got sober, started to unpack a lot of my sexual traumas, sexual just stuff…I really unpacked with my therapist, how I was like, I think I'm bisexual, but I've never been in a long term relationship with a woman. I've only casually dated and had sex with women, but all of my long term relationships have been with men, can I still be bisexual? I talked about it in therapy. I talked about it with other bisexual friends. We're finally in an era where there is adequate bisexual representation on television. Even shows like Sex in the City and The L Word, back in the day, they made fun of bi people…

Tiffany Wynn

And some people still do. 

Tawny Lara

Some people still do. And so I was like, God, if L Word and Sex in the City are making fun of bi people, what's wrong with me? That was some of the societal internalization of like, okay, well, something's wrong with me. I'm not bi enough. So I had to unpack all of that. And I don't think I ever would have done that deep emotional work if I didn't quit drinking first. Once you quit drinking, you have to get really honest with yourself. 

Or maybe it's reversed. You have to get really honest with yourself before you can quit drinking. And so I think it just kind of kept stacking where I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to drink. And then I kind of got that under control. And it's like, okay, well, I'm going to stop lying about this and then stop lying about this. And like I said, I'm still learning a lot about myself and my sexuality. And this is the stuff that I shared on social media, in essays, on podcasts, and that's when questions would come in. People asking me again, calling me the sober sexpert, I need help with this. I want to go on a date without alcohol. I'm not going to quit drinking, but I would like to get in the mood with my husband without a glass of wine. What do I do? So it organically…becoming a sober sex writer just kind of organically came. That was just kind of my journey. And never in a million years would have thought when I quit drinking that day, that this would be my trajectory. 

Tiffany Wynn

So first of all, I love that you said I'm not by enough, because I spent my whole life up until the last few years feeling like I don't fit. I like lots of things and I date men and women, and I was married for 14 years to my was-band, and we have children together, and I'm marrying a woman. And I don't know why for certain folks, this is a really complex idea. Why do you think it's so hard for people to just let their sexuality out of the bag and be whatever feels like the right thing? 

Tawny Lara

With bisexuality in particular, there is this weird dichotomy of privilege and erasure. I am in a long term relationship with a man and he is my person. And so there is this privilege. We can walk around and hold hands and we're not going to get a double look. So there is a privilege in that. But then there's also this erasure of like, here's a straight woman. So it's an interesting feeling. But I think to answer your question, it's also like I said, when you get sober and you're really honest with yourself, some people might find it really freeing to just let it all out. 

When researching this book, I interviewed dozens and dozens of sober and sober curious and normal drinkers about the role alcohol plays in their sexuality and gender identity. And a lot of people have come out as transgender, gender fluid queer. I think the most fascinating piece of research that I did was I researched asexuality in sobriety and talking to asexual people who realize that they're asexual when they quit drinking and they would drink alcohol to try to make themselves, quote unquote, feel normal, and that my heart just really ached for that. Because while I'm not asexual, I can definitely connect with the concept of using alcohol to try to make myself someone else. And that research really helped take the book to another turn of like…we think sexual liberation is like coming out or going to an orgy or going to a sex party, like doing these really big things. Sexual liberation can also mean realizing you don't like sex. 

Tiffany Wynn

That's right. 

Tawny Lara

That was really important for me to include that in the book because a lot of people find comfort in just hearing those words that they don't have to like sex, they don't have to like, or maybe they don't like it all the time. So I always want to squeeze that in in interviews to destigmatize, because we're talking about bisexuality is so complex and people can't unpack it, asexuality, people are not even thinking about that. 

Tiffany Wynn

I think it's amazing that you're talking about it and I want to hear more about what you were able to uncover in your book. I think something that…when we're talking about sort of the social justice conversations and the privilege conversations around sex and liberation, we spend a lot of time talking about radical behavior or behavior that does not look vanilla in any way. And I completely disagree that that is what it is. How about we just get at all the different ways it can be and let everybody off the hook and just accept that there are some people who could leave it and never want sex? And there are some people who want it all the time. And then there's all these kinds of sex, right? And with lots of different kinds of people and pink and fetish and all sorts of things. And it doesn't have to always be something spectacularly out in left field. Like it could be as simple as saying no. Like that is a radical act too. 

SHE RECOVERS Interlude

Hello, Lisa here. I hope this episode of the SHE RECOVERS podcast is resonating with you. I just wanted to pop in to say that sometimes we may need recovery support that goes beyond listening to an inspiring resource like this podcast and that's okay. I know firsthand how helpful it can be to have additional support from folks who have earned the right to hear my story. And you deserve to have this dedicated support, too. That's Why She Recovers has curated a directory of trusted resources that align with our intentions and guiding principles. In this directory, you will find treatment providers, therapists, recovery focus, resources, and SHE RECOVERS certified professionals that we like, know and trust to guide you on your healing journey. Visit www.sherecovers.org and click on the resources tab to learn more. 

Tiffany Wynn

And I wonder how? What else did you learn? I love what you're saying. And just for our listeners, tawny's book is available September 19 this year. It's available? And it's available for preorder right now through your website. 

Tawny Lara

Yeah, you can go to my website. Or you could just go to Amazon and type in my name. And it's available for preorder. And it's called Dry Humping. 

Tiffany Wynn

Fantastic. I love it. So, first of all, for people who aren't familiar with the idea of being a dry drunk or a dry drug addict, tell folks why you decided on this title. Why did you pick this? And then I want to know, what were some of the other…these sort of like crux learning moments where your understanding of the work you do changed.

Tawny Lara

Yeah, I love that question. The title Dry Humping, it was just a working title. I was just like, I don't know what the hell to call this thing. I'm just going to call it Dry Humping for right now because it made me giggle.

Tiffany Wynn

It makes me giggle too. I feel like I'm twelve. 

Tawny Lara

Yes, exactly. And then the longer it was the working title, the more I was like, this is the vibe that I want people to have because sober sex, dating and intimacy and relationships, that is such a heavy topic. And I want people to look at this book and laugh. I want them to see a funny title kind of giggle and then see the subtitle and and be like, oh, okay, interesting. Okay, I might try that. So my publisher, they were worried that people wouldn't get the joke and I was like, you guys know this is funny. I promise people think it's funny. 

Tiffany Wynn

I think it's fantastic. 

Tawny Lara

Yeah, good. Thank you. Thank you for validating. So, thankfully, we got to keep the title. And I will say I love your question about when did my work was it like, when did my work pivot or something change in my perspective? 

Tiffany Wynn

When did your understanding of your own work how did this project change your understanding of your own work? 

Tawny Lara

Yeah, so initially, when I wrote the book proposal and my agent and I shopped it around to publishers, the proposal was initially for people in recovery. It was sex, dating, and relationships for people in recovery. 

So, as you know, the language is different when you assume substances are off the table. You're working some sort of a program. You're prioritizing mental health. It was written from that perspective. And then the editor that really got the concept, she was like, I love this, but let's expand it. 

And so it's written not just for people in recovery, but it's for people that are sober / sober curious / people who want to drink less…wherever they are on the alcohol use disorder spectrum, it's now way more broad. 

So changing the language, basically, I had to rewrite a big chunk of the proposal. It taught me a lot about my own recovery, using words like alcohol free instead of in recovery or just little things like that, or whether you're sober or sober curious instead of sober people, stuff like that. It was really interesting to me. 

And then through that lens, like I said, I interviewed so many people. I mean, I interviewed regular people. I interviewed doctors, neurologists. I wanted to learn how liquid courage actually works. Like, what the hell is liquid courage? And why are we also obsessed with it? I wanted to know. I interviewed biochemists to learn about what alcohol is doing to our bodies. I learned so much, and I'm such a nerd. I love learning, and I just interviewing people about out their own experiences. Interviewing professionals, interviewing mental health professionals. It really blew my mind.

Because the book was you just…when you I guess when you write a book or when you put anything out there and you're collaborating with someone else, you have to be open to change. You have to have some wiggle room, be open to feedback, which was also new for me. I've worked with editors on freelance pieces, but those are like 1000 word articles, right? 

Tiffany Wynn

Chapters on chapters on chapters. 

Tawny Lara

This was a very, very different experience. So I learned a lot as a writer, as a sober person, just as a creative professional, and also how to advocate if you don't agree with the editor. What's worth fighting for? Because the editor is usually right. But then I learned if I got really defensive over a paragraph, I was like, no, this is important, because this, this and this. And she's like, well, you're not saying that. And I was like, oh, okay. So it's like, you have to have thick skin to do something like this. And I learned so much about myself and the sober world. 

Tiffany Wynn

That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you. I think. I want to buy this book, and I run a clinical office as well, and I want to bring it in for everyone that walks through the door. 

Um, where? Where are you going now? And I have other questions about, like, how much heat have you taken for this kind of writing? Like, are you trolled? Are you harmed in this process? Because every headline on your web page that shows all of your articles, it's provocative. It makes me want to read every single thing and everything I've read, I totally agree with. It's beautiful. And your satire is hilarious. 

Tawny Lara

Thank you. 

Tiffany Wynn

I mean, I'm a big fan of absurdity, but I have to imagine there are some feathers being ruffled by your work. And what has that been like for you? 

Tawny Lara

I do get a lot of just trolls on social media. When I post anything about alcohol free sex and dating, it's usually really stupid stuff like drunk sex is better from someone with someone with a ridiculous username. They don't have a picture. It's just like, okay, luckily, it's mostly been stuff like that. But as a sex writer in general. People don't view you as a human. 

We're talking about, like, the extreme. Not everyone's going to view you as a human. I've had people DM me inappropriate pictures in response to articles, and it's harassment. It is sexual harassment. And as soon as you report that account, it's deleted. So it's really difficult. And of all of the work that I did that I was most concerned about getting pushback I wrote an essay for Playboy about pegging a Trump supporter and teaching him about politics. And I was really concerned that people that readers would not…that readers would not be supportive of me meeting someone where they are. And yes, it's a sexual story, but it's about a political evolution and teaching this…and meeting this man where he was, I held space for him to ask questions, and it was actually, like, a really beautiful couple of weeks together. He wasn't my person, but we learned a lot from each other. And so I wrote an essay about it for Playboy because I do think we need to meet each other across the aisle more. And I was concerned that people would be upset by that, and they weren't. People were very supportive of the article and they were just like I just love that you pegged a Trump supporter. 

Tiffany Wynn

That is fantastic. And I love it. I love it more than you can possibly imagine. Maybe I love it as much as you love it. I don't know. So what is the next edge for you in this work? Like, what's the next place?

Tawny Lara

…in the sober sex and dating conversation? 

Tiffany Wynn

Yeah, what's next? 

Tawny Lara

So the thesis of the book is replacing liquid courage with something I call intrinsic courage. So a lot of the book really examines the role liquid courage plays in our lives, how liquid courage shows up on film and television, how we are socialized to accept that if you need to do something courageous, you take a shot, and that is what you do. So it really is a lot of cultural criticism. I'm and I'm having a lot of fun with that and. So like I said, actually, I'm starting a column about this. I've tried for literal years to land a sober sex and dating column, and even with all my editorial contacts, I've had zero luck landing it. As you know, people just don't see the value in it. But as people in the community, we're like, people fucking need this. 

Tiffany Wynn

Yeah, people need it. People ready to be alcohol free, need to know that you can have sex. You can do hard things, darling, without a drink. You can. 

Tawny Lara

Yes, you can. You absolutely can. So, like the type A capricorn that I am, I am taking the matters into my own hands, and I'm starting my own column. So it's a weekly newsletter where I answer subscriber questions about sober sex, dating, and relationships. So I'm really excited about that, really turning it into…for years, it was more journalistic work and research, and now I'm excited for the next lane to turn that journalistic research and personal experience into the column that I needed to read when I was newly sober. 

Tiffany Wynn

No kidding? Yeah, no kidding. I'm going to ask another question about…newly sober and sex can often be like playing with sex addiction to replace alcohol use. How are you addressing that with your colleagues, with your peers, with people who reach out to you?

Tawny Lara

I love this question and that's a whole chapter in my book, is talking about finding healthy relationships with relationships. And the reason that's in the book is because that was a huge part of my story. In early sobriety, I came to terms with the fact that I now identify as a sex and love addict in recovery, and I again had no idea what that actually meant because of how it's portrayed on television. I thought sex addiction was compulsively hooking up with strangers in bathrooms. But once I learned about how you can become addicted to anything, you can compulsively abuse. Anything like, you name it. And I definitely used sex and people as forms of validation. I used sex as a manipulation tool. I don't think I would have ever done that deep work if I didn't stop drinking first. 

Tiffany Wynn

Me either. 

Tawny Lara

And I did some sex and love addiction support groups. I read a lot about it. Getting off by Erica Garza is a fabulous memoir that I highly recommend. It's about a woman in recovery from sex and porn addiction, and you just don't hear that very often, women talking about it. And I just felt so seen reading about this woman who basically outsourced her self esteem to people, and I just so related to it. Highlighted so many pages. And there's also a great movie that I recommend on this topic. It's called Thanks for Sharing. And it is just all star cast. It's like Mark Ruffalo, Gwyneth paltrow. Tim Robbins. Pink is in it. And it is about people in sex and love addiction support groups. And it's so good. It's like 15 years old. It's so ahead of its time. I don't know why people didn't talk about it, but…

Tiffany Wynn

You know, why people didn't talk about it.

Tawny Lara

Yeah, that's true. 

Tiffany Wynn

We all know why people didn't talk about it. Because American culture is not ready to actually address sex as a reasonable human behavior. And then, like you said, when we use anything to feel differently than we feel in a moment, it it becomes dangerous for the humanness. But there is so much stigma. There's so much shame about sex, there's so much shame about body, there's so much shame about identity. And I love that you are the antidote. You're doing the opposite. Don't stop doing what you're doing. 

Tawny Lara

And I mean it's. Thank you for saying that. And I also think it's worth noting that it's like like I said, I'm seven and a half years sober, but I'm still doing this work. I'm still talking to my therapist about this. I'm still working on my codependency. I'm still working on my anxiety. I'm still working on a healthy sexual perspective on my own relationship instead of using sex as a barometer for what a healthy relationship is, because I grew up reading Cosmo, it's like, right, if you don't please your man three times a week, he's going to find sex somewhere else. So I was like, oh, my God. We're not having sex three times a week. What's wrong with me? 

Tiffany Wynn

Right? 

Tawny Lara

But if you're happy, who cares? As long as the people in the relationship are happy, it doesn't matter. You don't have to have sex a certain amount of times every week. Like we said earlier, you don't have to have sex at all, right? It's whatever works for you and your partner, and as long as you're communicating about it. And I love earlier you said that sometimes just saying no can be a radical act. Something that I've learned in recovery is like, even with my own partner, if we're having sex and I'm just not feeling it anymore, I'll tell him, I love you, but I'm just not into this anymore. Let's hit pause. I would have never had the audacity to stand up for myself like that before. 

Tiffany Wynn

I never stood up for myself like that before. And my partner and I, we spend a lot of time checking in, and we both have severe PTSD, so we have to stop and say, like, Is this okay? Are you okay? And over time, we've really gotten to know sort of precursor cues for each other. And I know when it's like, we need to just hold on to each other for a few minutes. Yes, it's time to get a soda water and just hold each other. There's no sex right now. We're just holding. 

Tawny Lara

I love that. A big conversation in the sex writer community in general of less focus on orgasm and more focus on connection and pleasure and intimacy. Because growing up, those same Cosmo articles are telling you what your orgasm is supposed to feel like and six ways to achieve an orgasm. So there's all this pressure and if you can just remove that and just enjoy being with someone, just holding each other. I didn't let myself have that kind of intimacy before I got sober. Now sometimes we're both so busy, so we have to schedule our intimacy time. Sometimes, like you said, it's just holding each other, catching up on our day. And sometimes that is all we need and it's just communicating it. 

Tiffany Wynn

Yeah, we joke a lot that we like to have our faces on each other's faces. 

Tawny Lara

I love that. 

Tiffany Wynn

It's really fun. You should try it. Just put your face on his face.

Tawny Lara

I'm going to go do that after this. I'm just going to go up to him and put my cheek on his cheek. What are you doing? 

Tiffany Wynn

Yeah. Stay there. It's really nice. So what haven't you got a chance to say to our amazing community and our listeners yet today that you really would like to say? 

Tawny Lara

You know, something that I wish as an avid reader, something that I wish I would have known before I got into publishing, is how important reviews and preorders are. So just letting…if a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, that book sounds cool, I'll get it when it comes out. Preorders can seriously help an author so much. They help the publisher know there's a demand. They help the publisher know that this is an important conversation. They know how many books to print, and it also helps get authors on the bestseller list. And also same with Goodreads reviews. If you're doom scrolling and you're like, I'm so bored, hop on Goodreads, hop on Amazon and just rate and review a book that you recently read because that helps future readers decide on if they're going to buy the book. And it really helps authors. So I always like to like if you're listening and you like to read and you want to support your favorite authors, find out what they're up to if they have a new book coming out, preorder, it so. That's all I'll say on that.

And then just on the sober sex and dating topic, I would just remind people that chapter one of my book is called Dating Yourself. It is all about the importance of finding who you really are without alcohol. And that's important whether you're single or in a relationship. I would argue it might even be more important if you're in a relationship, spend time by yourself. That doesn't mean, like, bubble baths and self care. 

Tiffany Wynn

I know that people get really confused about what that means. 

Tawny Lara

Yes, exactly. And it's like it absolutely can. But what I'm talking about, what I did in early sobriety, was really getting to know who the hell I am without alcohol. Getting to know myself the way that I wanted someone else to get to know me, and the way I wanted to get to know someone else. And that's the shit that you do in therapy. You do it in peer support groups, you do it in a journal. However you do it, just like I promise you, if you work on your own shit, your interpersonal relationships are just…they're going to get better. 

Tiffany Wynn

It's true. It's true fun.

Tawny Lara

And I'm not going to lie to you, it's hard and it's not fun. It's not fun all the time. But I don't think you get so, like. If you're listening to this podcast, and if you're sober or sober curious, you already have the mindset that you want to be better. You want to be a healthier person. So you're already a couple of steps ahead, I think.

Tiffany Wynn

Right? Absolutely. Truth. So, again, if you want to know more about Tawni, go to Tawnylora.com tawnylara.com and check out her amazing work. I am a reading snob, and I love your website. 

Tawny Lara

Thank you. You made my day. Yeah. 

Tiffany Wynn

Thank you. And thank you for spending time with us here at SHE RECOVERS. We are lucky to have you in our circle. I would love for you to come back after your book releases. I want to read it, and I want to talk about it more then. How do you feel about that? 

Tiffany Wynn

I'm in. Okay. All right. I'll have the team reach out to you. Have a really wonderful day. 

Tawny Lara

Thank you. You as well. 

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